Rachel Hollis on the importance of maintaining an identity outside of motherhood

Liz talks to Rachel Hollis, best-selling author, motivational speaker, blogger, podcast host, and mom of four about her new book Didn't See That Coming, her recent divorce, and how she overcame her childhood trauma. Rachel also shares tips on how women can maintain an identity outside of motherhood and marriage.

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Liz Tenety: I want to talk about a phrase that comes up a lot in motherhood and you probably have heard it, maybe: I'm just a mom. That idea of someone being quote, "just a mom." I think we've got to get beyond that. And it's so representative of how our culture likes to put women and our identities into boxes.

We all know what someone means when they say that. Maybe she's someone who stepped away from her career. Maybe it's someone who plans to go back, but isn't working outside of the house for pay right now. But the notion that she would think of herself—maybe you think of yourself, and I know I have at various times in my life—as "just a mom," is harmful to the conversation around who we really are, because the truth is there are multiple layers to every single one of our identities.

And it's easy for motherhood to become the lone identity that we have. In part, because that's how the world—maybe the male-centered almost corporate approach to defining people, identifying people, putting labels on them and their worth. Maybe it's that point of view that puts them into boxes. So, even if you don't work outside the home for pay, you're not just a mom, you are a person. You might be a volunteer, a leader in your community. We are all so much more. And by taking that label away or not talking about being "just a mom" as a negative, I think opens us up to all the many, many things that we are beyond motherhood.

Liz Tenety: Welcome to The Motherly Podcast, honest conversations about modern motherhood. I am Liz Tenety. I am the Cofounder of Motherly and a mom of four myself. Today, we're talking to Rachel Hollis, bestselling author, motivational speaker blogger, podcast hosts, and also a mom of four. We talked to Rachel about her new book titled, Didn't See That Coming. And we also chatted about her recent divorce and why it's been so incredibly important for her to be as honest as possible on social media, about motherhood. Rachel also shares her tips on how we as women can maintain an identity outside of motherhood and marriage.

Liz Tenety: Rachel Hollis, welcome to The Motherly Podcast.

Rachel Hollis: Oh my gosh. Thank you so much for having me

Liz Tenety: Okay, so our theme this season is motherhood your way. So, I'm really curious what you think makes your approach to motherhood unique.

Rachel Hollis: Well, I mean, I love that as a theme. I think that that is something that has taken me a really long time to understand as a mom—my oldest will be 14 in January—when I was a new mom.

And for the first several years, I was so hard on myself. Like brutally hard on myself, trying to fit into a narrative that other mothers I knew were living out—or that I thought I should live out. And I think I have developed such a grace for myself. I don't know that all moms are graceful with themselves and allow themselves to be who they are and show up as they are.

I want that for mothers everywhere, but I don't know that that's always the case here. I did not start out in motherhood with this approach for sure.

Liz Tenety: What did it look like in early motherhood? A lot of our listeners are new moms.

Rachel Hollis: I joke often when I speak that, you know, my son is 13 and a half. And I really feel like when he was a baby was kind of like prime time for Pinterest.

And I know Pinterest still exists and it's still very much a thing. But when he was little, it felt like this in on relentless mission to have your parenting, your baby, your life look a certain way. And certainly, it still exists to some extent with Instagram. But I think with, with Pinterest, it was like telling us the recipe, right? The exact directions.

And I did feel a ton of pressure to live into an ideal. And I think I probably struggled with that. Maybe more than some other moms that I know, because I am… a primary identity in my life is entrepreneur. You know, I've been an entrepreneur. I built this business nearly 17 years ago and that wasn't something that was accepted by my family, by my in-laws. And I don't think I was conscious of this, but in retrospect, I think I thought if I could have life look a certain way of—his first birthday party could be perfectly themed and organic food and, and charming little, you know, decorations and all of those things, and if he could always be in a cute outfit and I could always look a certain way—then other people would think that I was successful as a mom.

And then they wouldn't be upset that I was a working mom. And maybe that sounds silly, because you know, if I talk to friends who are in LA New York, Chicago, they're like, what are you talking about? Like, who cares if you work? Lots of moms work. But my family on both sides is Southern. I grew up in Southern church culture and there was this in our family and the people that we knew there was this idea that the perfect mom was the mom who stayed home.

Liz Tenety: And was that something that was said out loud?

Rachel Hollis: Absolutely.

Liz Tenety: Oh, wow.

Rachel Hollis: Absolutely. And typically to other people to make its way back to me and, you know, typically push back that maybe my husband got from family members that was like, "what's this going to do to the kids?" But yeah, it was, I, you know, I think people will often judge or pull apart things that they don't know.

And I understand that the people who were saying things or who are commenting on that, had a different story, had a different worldview, were a different person. And they weren't saying those things to be mean, like I can honor them and understand that they were saying those things from a place of true concern, but it was debilitating for me, debilitating.

And so, I think that I spent a lot of years trying to pretend to be someone that I actually wasn't, but for me, that manifested in severe anxiety. And I will say that when women in my community—my online community or at a conference or back when we could get together in real life—and they would come to a book signing when women tell me that they're joining and anxiety, the question I always prompt with is, "Who are you trying to please? Who are you?"

You know, and that's not always the case for anxiety, but I do think that for many of us, we're trying to live up to a certain expectation or else we feel like someone's going to be mad at us. We're going to do something wrong. And that definitely was the case for me.

And so, when I talked about this idea of learning grace, what I truly learned was to accept and love myself. And then in being able to accept myself as I was, then I could show up as the mom that I am not as a, you know, pretending to be anybody.

Liz Tenety: How did you actually end up letting that go? Because obviously a new motherhood you were trying to, to just be somebody else's idea of perfect. Like what changed in how you approach that?

Rachel Hollis: I started focusing more on my individual relationships with my children instead of the way other people perceived those relationships. And, I'm big on intention and goal settings. Every single morning, I have a practice that I do, you know, writing things down and every single morning of my life in my journal, I write down, "I am extremely close to my children."

And for me, that shift of the relationship that I have with them as individuals is not something that I had with my parents and is definitely a core value that I wanted. And it became more about that than it did about the way that it looked. I also think just to be totally honest, and I want to speak this to the moms who have little people, and I hope that this may be freeing to some, I know it will be judged by others, but I am not a great mom to babies and toddlers, that's not my jam. I don't… they're beautiful. I love them. I have a three-year-old and she's, I prayed and waited and fought so hard to have a daughter. Like when, let's say oldest, was three, I had so much guilt because I did not like it. I loved them, but I did not like being a mom to those little tiny people.

Like my sister-in-law's always, yeah, like she'd have a thousand babies. She loves babies like her life. That's not me. And you're not supposed to say that. And because that was the only experience I had with motherhood, I thought, Oh my God, I don't like being a mom. And that makes me a monster. And the greatest thing in the world, if you're a mom and you find yourself in that place, is time. My oldest, like I said is 13 and oh my gosh, he is so fun. My 12-year-old is so fun. My eight-year-old is so fun that I am freaking loving it. They're hilarious. We've found things that we have in common. We can do them together. It is… I do not say this lightly. It is a joy. It is the greatest joys in my life to be their mom. But when they were really little, it wasn't. And so being able to, to focus on my individual relationships with them and also getting to a place where I was able to enjoy the process and we're able to enjoy the process, it just changed the way the entire thing felt.

Liz Tenety: Looking back, you know, with this vantage point. How do you think your identity changed before and after becoming a mom? And were there different phases in that identity evolution to now?

Rachel Hollis: Yeah, it's such a good question. I think when I was younger, And, but when I say younger, I mean, you know, early twenties, mid-twenties, I absolutely sort of thought of identity as like, you could be one thing.

So, when I had Jackson, who's my oldest, I sort of thought like, I am a mom. Now I am a mom who works, you know, I am this thing. And what I understand, the older I get is that we are God-willing complex creatures. We are many different things. And that's okay. And that's as it should be. And I think that learning myself better really helped me to be a better mom, because I had this… you talked about this tension.

I had this tension of I'm sort of presenting this thing to the world and I'm supposed to be this kind of way. And I'm supposed to act in this way, but really I'm also this person and I'm not supposed to be "this person" because that's not what a mom is. And if you're listening, I'm doing air quotes, you can't see me.

But I think that I've really learned that my identity is supposed to be a bunch of different stuff. And the more that I can allow myself to just be who I am, I'm calmer and I'm more at peace. And that makes me the best mom for them. And my kids know that, right?

I told you earlier, a family member saying, "what's this going to do to the kids," which is absolutely something that I heard, "what is this going to do to the kids?" And I now can look at my life and think what's this going to do to the kids is create a world where my sons only know a universe where a woman can found and build a company from scratch can be a CEO, can build it to a multimillion dollar thing can write these books can where my daughter will only see this kind of strength.

We'll see a woman who doesn't apologize as for who she is. That's what it's going to do for me, my kids. And I think no matter what your story is, and you're listening to this… no matter what your story is, you are the one. I really believe this. You are the person that, whatever you believe in, God, your creator of the universe… wanted these babies to have you. You are the thing that was meant for them to take them through.

So, whoever it is that you are, you're their mom on purpose. And if you were their mom on purpose, then you are supposed to just to show up as yourself, wholly and completely and unapologetically because there's a reason that you are who you are. Who were you before you were their mom? Because she still matters.

If you buy into the belief that your only identity now is mother or partner or whatever, if you only begin to see yourself in relation to who you are for other people, I think that is incredibly dangerous. That's how we lose ourselves. That's how we lose our passion. That's how we don't know what our hobbies should be.

I mean, the amount of times that a woman has stood online at a book signing or something, and they're bawling to me and they're like: "I'm lost. I don't know who I am lost myself." It is so dangerous because hopefully if you're doing parenting correctly, you're going to launch these kids. We're not raising children to just be our kids. You are raising kids to launch them into the world. And I know it's different in certain families. And I know, you know, I'm sure we have moms here listening who have, children with special needs and things are different. I get it. But. For the most part, the whole point is that you also wouldn't want them to have the only identity to be your child. And so, you shouldn't be "just a mom." I'm a mom and a poet, right? I'm a mom and I work at the arts center. I'm a mom and I volunteer at church. I'm a mom and I'm going back to school, whatever that looks like. That is how you do it.

I'm, I'm sure, you know, someone, maybe all of us know someone who gloried in being a mama. And then the last baby went off to college. And they find themselves having an identity crisis because they have no identity outside of this person who just moved out.

Liz Tenety: It's also a lot of pressure on those kids to be everything to that mother.

Rachel Hollis: Right. I think you can feel that. I think that's another motivator for me, at least too, to know that I want them to be their own people. And, and I, you know, sometimes we'll say like, I need time for myself too. You know, I'll say that to my kids. And like they slowly, I think they get that too.

Liz Tenety: Ok, so I want to talk a little bit more about the themes in your new book, especially around identity and boundaries.

I did not originally see those two things as having anything to do with one another identity and boundaries, but they clearly do. What do you think some of the biggest Identity crises or identity evolutions that women face, especially through motherhood are?

Rachel Hollis: I mean, so in the book about this idea of going through an identity crisis, you touched on this earlier, where we sort of become something new, but we're still operating with the mindset, the wiring system of who we were before. And so, there's a ton of tension, not just for ourselves, but also to our family, our friends who may have preconceived notions about who they perceive us to be, what they think our identity is when we step up outside of it.

That is just, you know, fertile ground for people to push back. Or for people to challenge you. And oftentimes if you don't know yourself well, if you aren't committed to who you are and living authentically, you know, understanding that you are the only person who should be able to decide what your identity is… it should never be decided by someone else. If you don't have that down there inside you, then you will very easily do what I did back when I became a new mom. Where you tell yourself, oh, the in-laws don't like this part of me. You don't have any boundaries if you don't understand that you're not allowed to stand up for yourself – when you are a person who wants desperately to please everyone and have them love you. So, you just show up as someone else.

I'll try and fit myself into your box, because if I can fit myself into the mold that you want for me, then maybe you'll love me. Right? And what ends up happening is you hurt yourself and I never know anyone who has successfully navigated that because even if you convince everybody that you're this other thing, it ends up making you bitter, it ends up hurting that relationship so much more than if you would just have the courage to say: "This is who I am. This is how I'm going to show up in this space."

Boundaries are really interesting thing because I think so many of us, especially as women, weren't raised to know that we were allowed to ask for them or allowed to put them into place. I can't remember if I wrote about this, but I asked my therapist recently, how do I even know? How do you know when you need a boundary? How do you know what one is or what it should be?

And she said, if you have something that you are asking for and other people would call you selfish for asking for it, that's where you need a boundary.

I want to use a very real time opportunity for this. I'm going through a divorce right now, and lots of people both publicly and privately had many opinions on that. And one of the ones that I experience—and I'm sure Dave experienced, on his side. There are people in our life who want the story. They want to know why.

And we sort of—we said, publicly—this is this thing. You know, here's what it is. We said what we wanted to say. And lots of people, friends and family members want to know what happened. "Tell me, walk me through it in detail." And they believe that because they are a part of our lives, that they are entitled to that information, which is incredibly private.

And that was something that people pushed: "But I can't believe, I can't believe that you want to explain this to me, you know, my meemaw, right? Like, why aren't you?"

And in learning about boundaries, that as a grownup, I am allowed to say, "I am not going to talk about this. This is not something that I choose to share. I've told you what I want to tell you."

And that's not how I was raised at all. I was raised at like, your elder, your grandmother wants information about your personal life, you better file a report, like tell her everything that she wants to know. And so, for me to be able to say, "Oh my gosh, meemaw, I love you so much. I'm doing okay. But I'm not going to talk about it." I felt like such a grown-up telling my 85-year-old grandmother, she didn't get to know the details of this. So, I feel like that is a really hard lesson to learn. But I feel like you build boundaries one at a time, one person at a time, are so important so you can be able to be who you are.

We talk about this identity and who we believe ourselves to be. The identity that I want to claim for myself is a grown-ass woman. I don't have to answer to family members. I don't have to answer to strangers on the internet. Just because you would like that information, doesn't mean that I'm required to give it to you.

Liz Tenety: For people who don't know you, we haven't addressed some of the childhood traumas and the death of your brother. So, could you tell our listeners a little bit about those things that you have gone through in your life before motherhood and adulthood?

Rachel Hollis: Yeah. So, as a little girl—I say this with respect, but I have two parents who really struggle with mental illness, um, in different ways and my older brother was paranoid schizophrenic.

And when I was 14-years-old, he committed suicide and I found him. And what was already a very hard family childhood now was eviscerated into something else. And so, there was trauma before which I haven't written about and, and won't ever, because I try to be very conscious with what are my stories to tell? And those are not my stories to tell. I really try to focus on my experience… but lots of trauma before, and then obviously some pretty severe PTSD from the things that happened that day and the things that happened afterwards. And then, you know, the ins and outs of navigating becoming an adult and postpartum depression and going through the adoption process and some interesting turns that that took. But, yeah, that's a little bit of, of that…. So the premise of the book was there beforehand.

Liz Tenety: The thesis of your book —the title of Didn't See That Coming—it's something I've been thinking about a lot, having this conversation with you because you know, for myself too, like I grew up in New York and 9/11, which the anniversary of which is, is the week that you and I are speaking. To me, that was like this thing that we never saw coming. And we had a family car accident with some members of our family who died over a decade ago. And that's a thing you just never see coming. And you, you have decided this year, to get divorced and that also wasn't the twist that you saw your story taking. How do you approach life with lan open heart? When so many of these traumas that people go through are things that you literally never see coming?

Rachel Hollis: Yeah, I think that's what makes it harder. And, you know, there are certainly people who are listening, who have experienced a crisis or trauma that did have a buildup, right? That they did sort of take part in every piece of it. But when you go through something that you did not anticipate, the world is going through something that we did not anticipate, it's so much harsher because you're dealing with grief while you're also dealing with shock. And you can't. You know, get through it. When I first wrote the book, I wanted to call it Well… That Sucked.

Liz Tenety: An alternative title.

Rachel Hollis: Basically, I saw this situation we're going through now. So, it was like, that's, that's what we're going through. This was at the beginning of quarantine and my editor was like, "that feels so harsh." And I was like, "okay."

So, we tried to think of something different… I mean, I think we're seeing this everywhere right now with celebrities, with people on social media, a lot of couples are encountering this inside of quarantine. And you know, I think everyone talks about 2020 as this year of like, it's this dumpster fire and it's this mess, if you want to see it in that way. I do think though, that whenever something gets burned down, there is an opportunity for regrowth. There is rebirth that happens in that experience. And I feel like I have gone through hard things so many times—this is long before 2020—that I have learned to get to that place faster, to understand that. You know, you asked, how do you have an open heart? Because like I said, I'm repeating something that's in the book, but so many people talk about this time period. And they're like, the future's uncertain. It's so uncertain in 2020, the future's uncertain.

But the future has always been uncertain! The only difference is that now you're aware of it. Back in January in the US, we still thought we were in control. And the only difference is your awareness of the lack of control. I think human nature says that even though we know it now, we will want to forget that truth as fast as possible. Everyone is like, when will it go back to normal? But when will it? Never. It will never go back to what it was. It just is.

Liz Tenety: That is a part of the book that I wrote down. I don't know if you have it and if I can ask you to maybe read it now or later, which is that:

I'm sorry that you have to hear this, but I love you enough to tell you the truth. Your life will never go back to the way that it was. Because whatever you've lived through has changed you. And whether it's changed you for the better or worse is something that only you can decide.

There's so many chapters of your life, but also for us all, collectively. So, how do we make this a moment for the better, how do we make this a moment for racial justice? Right? How do we make this a moment for realizing the value of childcare, right? And the childcare crisis that we're in? Is there is an opportunity here for us to like, look deep into these ashes, as they're burning to say, what is the different world that we're building on top of, you know, all this heartache?

Rachel Hollis: Absolutely. I think that it is really easy to look at all the things that are happening and see only the hard stuff. And I also understand that I'm speaking as someone who hasn't lost a family member to COVID. I understand that there are parts of this experience that I'm deeply privileged to get to talk about, but there is, within this, all of the things that you see there—there is goodness. Having to get to a place, where the world is exploding with what is happening in terms of Black Lives Matter. And that like, it is hard. We are two white women. You cannot see us, but we are two white women having this conversation and across the board, white people, but especially, the white women are having to come to terms with the role that we have played in that, right? How we are part of this narrative that has created a world that says that these things are happening and we weren't marching, right? Or these things were happening and we watched them happen?

Liz Tenety: Exactly, racial injustice, wasn't discovered this year, just because white women started marching and black lives matter, right?

Rachel Hollis: Yeah. But the flip side of having to hold all of this pain and hope all that, number one, you better develop some freaking empathy for the people who have had to carry this this entire time. Number two, there is change. There is change. My best friend I told you about earlier does a ton of work with racial reconciliation, she's black and Mexican American, and she does a ton of work.

And she's like, people care about the fact that they're racist. In her work, what she's done for a decade, she's like, "Oh my gosh, more than ever people actually care. They want the information. They want to learn."

So, sometimes I do feel like we have to get to a place of trauma… of burning of ashes for us to see change. And I think historically, I know I'm going off on a tangent, but historically, if you look at when we have seen incredible change happen, civil rights movement, or I would say equality with women. We still have a ways to go there, but it always comes on the other side of extreme opposition and getting to a place where you feel like… in writing we call it, like the dark night of the soul. It always gets to where you're like, this is the worst, in order to see real change. And I think I know went off on a tangent, but I think here's how this applies to you. As a listener on my wrists, I have a tattoo that says "embrace the suck."

And I got this tattoo last summer after I did this insane mountain climbing challenge. And I got it because I wanted to remind myself that everything good and beautiful in my life came on the other side of something hard. You know, running my first marathon, the season that I'm in with my family. I believe completely with every part of my being that there is beauty on the other side of this suck.

And so, I approach life with that attitude. I want to embrace the good times, celebrate them, like soak them up and enjoy when it's good. And when it's hard, I want to embrace that too. Because this is what it is to be human.

Liz Tenety: In a short passage in your book about boundaries and divorce, you talk about coming to the realization that that was the right choice for you, even though you knew it was going to hurt your kids. And that's not the end of the story, but that's, there's a sentence in there that kind of is a gut punch like that.

Rachel Hollis: Yeah.

Liz Tenety: How do you walk your kids through that?

Rachel Hollis: So, I'll tell you, I mean, I'll, I'll tell this story for anybody who sort of finds himself in a similar situation or finds themselves, you know, debating this thing that, you know, in your heart is right.

But so many women and probably men to stay in something that is unhealthy for the kids. And I finally got to the place where I understood that. What I was doing. Remember earlier, I said, you know, they don't, they don't listen to what we say. They watch what we do. And I thought, my] God, you are teaching these babies, in real time, what a relationship is supposed to be. And this is not what I would want them to aim for as individuals, or as part of a partnership.

And I will tell you, and I'm sure he would say the same, that the day we told our kids is one of the worst moments of my life. It's awful. You really sit down and you break your children's hearts and you don't just break them that day…. You keep breaking them. You know, when you have to keep making choices and you know, now it's time to move out, and now it's time to do these things… That is heartbreaking.

And I read a lot, a lot of books, a lot, a lot of books. And I will say one of the things that was really hard for me—for us—was that I couldn't find information for what our situation was like. Everything I was looking up that was like, how do you tell your kids, it would say things like, use the fact that your kids have heard you fighting for months as the example, and that wasn't our story. And so, we really struggled to know how, and so you just do your absolute best, we really tried to approach it as them as individuals instead of a big group. So we told them all together, not Noah, she's too little to understand, but for the boys, an eight-year-old receives that information differently than a 13-year-old. And I have tried really hard. My parents are divorced and I've tried really hard to think about what did I need, what did I need to hear? What did I need to hear again and again and again, so that I could feel safe and secure?

I've read every freaking parenting book on this topic in the last four months. And I've just worked really hard to make sure that they feel secure and that they understand. And even when it's hard and y'all, there are times when it's really freaking hard, they see us as a united front. We still have family dinners. We still celebrate together. They still see us talking and still see us hanging out.

And honestly, there's some part of that that is even, that's even a little confusing. Our 12-year-olds is like, "I don't get it. Like you guys are friends." That'll sort of bring up something in him. And I just keep saying like, "buddy, I know." I hated when adults said this to me… "But I swear you will understand this better when you're older."

And all I can tell you right now is I've said, have you ever had a friend that was like your best friend in third grade? And you loved each other so much, you had so much fun. And then by the time you got to fifth grade, you still really like this person and they're good person, but you just had grown apart in a way that what the friendship was had to change, because it's different than it was

And he's like, yeah. And he can name a couple of friends that happened with, and I'm like, I know this does not make sense when you're 12 years old, but that is what happened with our relationship we have and have had together for 18 years. We are completely different people than the people who fell in love and the people who exist today still love each other very much. But it's not the same thing. And so it has to evolve.

Liz Tenety: So, one of the theses that we have at motherly is that motherhood just brings out superpowers within us that maybe we didn't know were there before we became moms. And I'm wondering what you see as your superpower?

Rachel Hollis: I think. And I do think this applies to how I parent my kids.

I think that I have… you know, growing up in the church would have called it "discernment." But I think that I have an ability to understand what you're really saying to understand what you really mean. And it's super hard to explain, except that when someone comes to me with a problem or something that they're facing, they'll say, "I'm struggling with this."

And I don't know how, I don't know, if it's a study of people, I don't know if it is the fact that I've read thousands of books at this point. I don't know if it's the fact that I've been in community with people, you know, for 15 years on social media, but I feel like I have the ability to discern what they really are struggling with and to help them unpack that.

And I do think that I approach my kids this way. You know, the 12-year-old is really upset about this thing that his brother did and I'm like, "Oh, but it's actually this piece right here." That may be, sounds like a very weird answer, but that is, I think, something I'm good at. And I think if you see success in my career, especially as a writer or communicator, it is only because I am in relationship with people all over the world and have been for so many years through social media, that I continue to have these conversations and I continue to dig and I feel like I can sort of disseminate all this things down into a more… something that I can understand and then hopefully something that I can help them understand.

Liz Tenety: Rachel Hollis, thank you so much for joining us today on the motherly podcast.

Rachel Hollis: Thank you so much for having me. I super appreciate it.

Liz Tenety: Hey, it's Liz before our next segment starts. I just wanted to tell you about another parenting podcast that I think you might like. It's called "Mom and Dad are Fighting," and it's Slate show about parenting and families each week. Host Jamila Lamieu, Dan Kois, and Elizabeth Newcamp share their personal parenting, triumphs and failures, and offer advice to listeners on raising kids from toddlers to teens.

They dive deep into topics, like how to talk to your kids about racism and have a lot of tips for co-parenting and the time of coronavirus. You can subscribe to "Mom and Dad are Fighting" from Slate, wherever you get your podcasts.

Liz Tenety: Grant, how would you describe me, other than a mom?

Grant: Um, I would probably describe you…. Hmmm….

Liz Tenety: Okay, let me try Mary. Mary, what are mom's jobs and what are my other jobs? Am I just a mom? Are there other things that I do?

Mary: hmmm….

Grant: I know! You are also a madman!

Mary: No…. She's not a…. she's not a boy… she's not a madman.

Grant: And you are a viking!

Liz Tenety: So, ok. I guess I'm a Viking and a madman…

Liz Tenety: Well, that's it for our show this week. Thank you so much, Rachel. And thank you for listening. We would love it if you spread the word about our podcast this season, we have so many amazing guests and more coming soon. So, leave us a review on Apple podcasts. It takes about 30 seconds. I read every single review and those reviews really help other mamas discover our show.

The motherly podcast is produced by Jennifer Bassett. With editing from Seaplane Armada. Our music is from the Blue Dot Sessions. I'm your host, Liz Tenety. Thank you so much for listening.

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Hosted by Liz Tenety

Liz is an award-winning journalist and editor, and the co-founder of Motherly. A former Washington Post editor, she thrives on all things digital community + social media strategy. She's passionate about helping to provide women with more support, (and way less judgment), on the journey through motherhood. This podcast is an extension of her commitment to hosting honest conversations about modern motherhood. Liz resides outside NYC with her husband, two sons, one daughter and one amazing au pair.

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